I kinda look at it similar to looking at a house. There's stuff that's easy to change (like paint or doors) and stuff that's damn near impossible or at least not cost effective (like square footage). I can swap out pickups or electrics pretty cheaply. Changing the neck is harder and more costly, much less the body or paint color (absent some serious DIY ethic). So if it plays well acoustically, even if I hate how it sounds electrically, I just have to factor in that comparatively cheap upgrade since the 'bones' are good. However, if I don't like how it feels or responds acoustically, odds are I'm not going to fix that with a cheap change. That ignores simply setup type stuff or some fairly easy fretwork because that can happen on any guitar no matter the price point.
Paul compares 4 Fiesta Red Strats, from $400 to $60K
- Thread starter DougMen
- Start date
I kinda look at it similar to looking at a house. There's stuff that's easy to change (like paint or doors) and stuff that's damn near impossible or at least not cost effective (like square footage). I can swap out pickups or electrics pretty cheaply. Changing the neck is harder and more costly, much less the body or paint color (absent some serious DIY ethic). So if it plays well acoustically, even if I hate how it sounds electrically, I just have to factor in that comparatively cheap upgrade since the 'bones' are good. However, if I don't like how it feels or responds acoustically, odds are I'm not going to fix that with a cheap change. That ignores simply setup type stuff or some fairly easy fretwork because that can happen on any guitar no matter the price point.
DougMen
Squier-Axpert
You're completely ignoring what I said. If a guitar sounds like doo doo plugged in, compared to one that's the same model with the same pickups that sounds glorious, then that doo doo guitar is still going to sound like that no matter what pickups are in it or how it sounds unplugged. Your logic is seriously flawed from the get go. How a piece of wood responds acoustically is unrelated to how it influences the pickups and electrified tone.
MyLittleEye
Squier Talker
Two guitars sound equally pleasing plugged into an amp but one feels lively to play, the other feels like doggy doo 🤷♂️ Which one would your logic suggest you keep?
DougMen
Squier-Axpert
I'd keep the one that sounds best to me AMPLIFIED. If I like them equally, then I'd keep both, or keep the one that has the best feeling neck and plays the best. Once again, the unamplified sound is completely immaterial, and doesn't enter into the equation in any way, nor should it. If you choose otherwise, fine. Just don't try to convince me that it makes any sense at all, because it doesn't. But, the placebo effect is a powerful force on human psychology, so if it makes you enjoy a guitar more, go for it. We are all subject to those forces in many aspects of our lives. If we have two guitars that play as well and sound as good as one another, but one looks better to us, we enjoy playing that one more too, even though it has no effect on the sound or playability, except in our mind. If you convince yourself that something is better, then it is, and whether that is factual or only your perception is immaterial too.
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MyLittleEye
Squier Talker
What's being said here is that for many of us the haptic response of an instrument takes equal precedence to how it sounds. A guitar that feels 'dead' in the hands just isn't as inspiring to play as one that feels as good as it sounds. I can't imagine any musician who'd disagree that their ideal instrument should do both.
This is why we'll play a solid body straight off the wall in a shop before it's even plugged in. How it will sound has so many variables. How it feels is a constant.
This is why we'll play a solid body straight off the wall in a shop before it's even plugged in. How it will sound has so many variables. How it feels is a constant.
DougMen
Squier-Axpert
If you're talking about the feel of the neck, and the feel of how the body, neck, and pickups respond to your touch and pick attack when AMPLIFIED, then yes. How it "feels" as an acoustic instrument has NO bearing on how it performs as an electric guitar, and its interaction with your effects and amp. That's why we have effects and amps, and don't just play them with our ears laying against the body. Otherwise, why waste your money on an amp and effects? Do electric piano, synth, and organ players wax poetically about how their instruments "feel" when they aren't amplified, other than the feel of the keys? Do some Hammond B3s or Rhodes electric pianos "feel" different than others? No, because they aren't deluded and delusional, and aren't living in an irrational fantasy world.
65refinyellow
Squier-holic
I did the “poor man” way of dealing with getting a good sound which in hindsight was better.
I didn’t have the cash so I simply practiced more than anybody I know. Sure I didn’t play 24/7 like the kids in Austin, TX or LA who are probably better than anybody in the world, but I got tone from my fingers.
I knew the best kids in guitar growing up were the poor ones with cheaper gear versus the rich kids who had the best gear and didn’t play or didn’t play much.
Ironically or maybe not, my two rich friends didn’t play had a Bob Taylor handmade acoustic which are made one a month and the other of course a ‘59 Les Paul, lol.
I didn’t have the cash so I simply practiced more than anybody I know. Sure I didn’t play 24/7 like the kids in Austin, TX or LA who are probably better than anybody in the world, but I got tone from my fingers.
I knew the best kids in guitar growing up were the poor ones with cheaper gear versus the rich kids who had the best gear and didn’t play or didn’t play much.
Ironically or maybe not, my two rich friends didn’t play had a Bob Taylor handmade acoustic which are made one a month and the other of course a ‘59 Les Paul, lol.
stratfreak
Squier-Meister
whichever one plays and sounds better plugged in.
stratfreak
Squier-Meister
If you try to argue using reason and logic on a guitar forum, you'll fail. These places are filled with people who spout nonsense.
Saw that video, while they all sounded pretty good. I'd pass on the '62 only because it costs way too much. C'mon be serious who gonna take that out to play when it cost almost as much as a down payment for a cheap house (in Hawai'i)?
For me, I'd rather take the red CV and run with that. And yes, +1 on the FR/IL version in the States. ...wait, I thought ye disliked IL? 😆
Glad ye found the One for ye. And I agree, the guitar has to Feel right to me, good sound or not. Simply because if it doesn't Feel good to me, I'm not as likely to play it, simple as that. Feel is the amalgamation of how good it Feels in the fretting hand, how well it vibrates against my body (VERY important to me), how comfy my right arm feels on the body, how well my picking hand Feels on the bridge (during palm mutes, etc.), how well it hangs on the neck and shoulders when strapped on and standing, how well it sits on the lap while sitting down, etc.
The flaw in yer thinking is in assuming that @dmrogers only does the Feel test and nothing else. I'm reading between the lines in his post and it appears that he also did the plugged in test AFTER doing the Feel test. I would too. Ive had experienced guitars that sounded lackluster but passed the Feel test with flying colors. MOST of the times, it was down to poor setup and redoing it revived the Sound. A few other times it was due to lousy or bad pickups or electronics. Easy enuff to fix.
Bottom line with me, a guitar has to Feel right FIRST, before I even do a plugged in test to check how it Sounds. Even if the guitar doesn't pass the initial Sound test, it still has a chance of me buying it as long it passes the Feel test strongly enough to make it worth my time to suss out the Sound issues.
If a guitar doesn't Feel right it could easily cost a lot more time, effort and money to fix the woodwork, whilst fixing something in the electronics and hardwares are a lot more easily done, takes less time/effort to do and has the greatest degree of flexibility in changing how an electric guitar sounds. I'd much rather be dealing with a Sound issue than a Feel issue.
PS: Another thing is that even if a guitar has perfect Sound, if it Feels crappy, I ain't picking it up to play, either at all or not often enuff to make it worthwhile to keep. In one case I yanked all the electronics and hardwares and moved them to another guitar that Feels great but had sucky Sound. Voilà I had a guitar that Feels great and Sounded WAY better.
I know some people say "I prefer a guitar that fights back." I always thought that sounds silly, much like a macho dude saying "I'm tough, I sleep on the rocks and can still be up n ready to kill a bear barehanded." Sounds like to me they have a perfect Sounding guitar that failed the Feel test. Well they're welcomed to that guitar, I'd pass on it and try find a guitar that Feels AND Sounds good...or at least one that Feels good and that I can make to Sound good ...at least to ME.
Perfect example is my friend's '65 'burst Telecaster. It sounds glorious to me, but man it had the ergonomics of a huge plank of wood. No kidding. I eventually found not one but two Squier Contemporary Telecaster HHs that I love! Both together, after mods, cost me WELL under what that '65 might've costed me. Had my buddy be willing to sell. (HEEELLLL NO, not even if ye offer me 50 grand." His words.) NOT that I'd be buying, …even if I had 50k$US.
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Lanaka, thank you very much for your reply. I have to congratulate you on your comprehension skills. You pretty much nailed my thoughts. Sure, a musical instrument has got to sound good, but that is only part of the equation.
I had a 1960 61 or 62 Strat, my very first Fender. It was not new, but I purchased it after having a beautiful spanish guitar but you know as a younger person, you want the latest things, so Fender it was.
Later in my years, I sold my spanish guitar for more than the price of my Fender. It was a true made in spain brand guitar. Then in 1997, I sold my Fender for about 950.00 and thought I made out on it, little to know how the 1960 periods guitars would explode price wise as they have. I stopped playing guitars in 2005 or 2007 not sure of the exact year, but now after just last year getting back into it, the entire world of guitars is mind blowing, pedals, gear, oh my my you can go nuts just looking at it all. But for me, I have exactly what I could ever want, found the best amp deals, and found Squier Talk, found much needed help figuring our what the green light and red buttons on all the gizmo's do!
I thank everyone so very much!
Later in my years, I sold my spanish guitar for more than the price of my Fender. It was a true made in spain brand guitar. Then in 1997, I sold my Fender for about 950.00 and thought I made out on it, little to know how the 1960 periods guitars would explode price wise as they have. I stopped playing guitars in 2005 or 2007 not sure of the exact year, but now after just last year getting back into it, the entire world of guitars is mind blowing, pedals, gear, oh my my you can go nuts just looking at it all. But for me, I have exactly what I could ever want, found the best amp deals, and found Squier Talk, found much needed help figuring our what the green light and red buttons on all the gizmo's do!
I thank everyone so very much!
No probs, I see music from both sides, that of the Spectator's where sound is paramount, of course. But also from the Musician's perspective in that music is a full body experience.
Oh and with acoustic guitars, BOTH Sound and Feel tests must be passed before I buy any more acoustics. They're too much of a headache to fix in both departments. :/
Squier has FSR fiesta red with Indian laurel board, they apear time to time. I csnt see much difference betwee CV strat and 60k strat
MyLittleEye
Squier Talker
Mike Rutherford has recently been doing it the "poor man" way too.
He dashed down to the shops and snatched up a couple of Squier Bullet Strats before lockdown confined him to his hotel, and found a keeper...
As his guitar tech tells it: "Mike has got so many other wonderful Strats, but he also loves using these Indonesian-made Squier Bullet Stratocasters. He can’t put the Sonic Grey one down. It’s the first guitar he wants to play every day and he uses it for some big songs in the Genesis set including No Son of Mine and Mama."
I'm pretty sure when Mike says about his Squier "It's got a life to it" he's talking about how lively it feels under his fingers; in the same way as @Lanaka so aptly describes "Feel", rather than how it was sounding through his 3 watt lockdown amp.
Arena-rocking Genesis guitarist Mike Rutherford has been using $200 Squier Bullet Strats onstage
"I just love it," Rutherford says of the budget Strat. "It's got a life to it. It's a little bit lighter than some and it's got a slightly smaller neck which helps my aging fingers"
www.guitarworld.com
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DougMen
Squier-Axpert
I don't know what FR is, but I like RW and IL. I don't like PF.
DougMen
Squier-Axpert
This has gone on back and forth far too long, and I'm not trying to antagonize anyone. But, apparently I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts on the matter.
All I've been trying to say is that the way a guitar responds to your touch and the resulting sound when unplugged can at times reflect how it will respond to your touch and the resulting sound when plugged in, but not always, from my experience.
Also, the way it responds to your touch, and the resulting unplugged sound, is also very dependent on how it is setup and how that setup relates to your individual playing style.
Rejecting a guitar out of hand because the setup and resulting unplugged sound isn't to your liking may result in you missing out on some very fine instruments, because, even with a poor setup, the feel and sound when plugged in will still give you a much better idea of how it will sound and feel, when setup well, than it will when only playing it unplugged, and then dismissing it without even trying it plugged in. But, that's your loss, and someone else's gain, when they plug it in and find out how awesome it is, that you missed out on.
All I've been trying to say is that the way a guitar responds to your touch and the resulting sound when unplugged can at times reflect how it will respond to your touch and the resulting sound when plugged in, but not always, from my experience.
Also, the way it responds to your touch, and the resulting unplugged sound, is also very dependent on how it is setup and how that setup relates to your individual playing style.
Rejecting a guitar out of hand because the setup and resulting unplugged sound isn't to your liking may result in you missing out on some very fine instruments, because, even with a poor setup, the feel and sound when plugged in will still give you a much better idea of how it will sound and feel, when setup well, than it will when only playing it unplugged, and then dismissing it without even trying it plugged in. But, that's your loss, and someone else's gain, when they plug it in and find out how awesome it is, that you missed out on.
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MyLittleEye
Squier Talker
Hey DougMen I didn't mean to come over as antagonistic either - indeed I totally accept most points you raise. For one, I think we've been speaking at cross purposes over the (ir)relevance of a solid-body electric guitars' acoustic (audible) sound vs its unplugged tactile feel, whilst trying to get points across - I do hear you.
It was mostly the remark "The only thing that matters is how it sounds plugged into an amp!" followed soon after by the inference that to believe otherwise was to be "deluded and delusional and live in an irrational fantasy world" ... well that actually gave me a chuckle but I apologise for taking the bait! - it just seemed a bit strong
And I accept the important point you make about rejecting a guitar out of hand because of poor setup alone. I have a 60's Teisco that is an absolute dog, However, the sounds those knackered looking microphonic pickups put through my amp are to die for! ...but only if you like a certain kind of ragged bust up hardware sound! I was like "Ahhh so this is what Hound Dog Taylor's tone's about". I'd never have known it if I hadn't taken the guitar on as a project for a friend and, yes... plugged it in! First impressions were "Aww this sounds like ass..." but then after a moment came "Hey, wait a minute!". Even so, just because it makes my favourite racket doesn't mean it will ever be my favourite guitar - playing it is too much like hard work!.
So I guess the takeaway is, in favouring an instrument some of us are going to prioritise feel and others will prioritise sound as the determining factor - different strokes...
Things may have got a little heated but I think it's been a worthwhile discussion.
And, at a stretch, it's still relevant to the original topic. I'd certainly hesitate to buy that expensive strat of Paul's if, all other things being equal, a cheaper one felt...
Wait... no, I'll shut up now!
FR = Fiesta Red, pardon my laziness. 😁 And yeah, I want a Fiesta Red with Indian laurel (or better yet, an older one with a rosewood fretboard) too!
Ah my bad! In that I TOTALLY agree. I absolutely dislike Pau Ferro. Some of those fretboards looks like uncooked bacon whilst other looks more like couple varieties of melted chocolate swirled together which sometimes looks pretty in itself but doesnt look right on a guitar neck.
Perhaps ye can call me a visual purist, but I prefer the appearance of the better pieces of rosewood, ebony, indian laurel, or (with glossy clear) maple fretboards that sports a mostly straight and fine grains, less variegated colouration and finer pores (altho rosewoods could go with a little bit larger pores than most other woods and still looks good).
